William Ballas
1 Posts
(Calabasas, CA)
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A father and his kid came into our store the other day and wanted me to notarize the son who was 14. He had a passport and had a document "Affidavit of so and so" for the state of Georgia concerning a divorce situation. There was not enough proper notarial wording so I would assume to attach the Jurat loose-leaf. I called the NNA and they said that I could do the Jurat given proper ID (passport) and to verify he knew what he was doing, as well as place his age next to his signature.
I was shocked to hear that a minor can swear or affirm the validity of a document and that I could notarize it. An acknowledgment with proper ID seems legitimate but the swearing of a minor? Any thoughts? Still doesn't seem right...
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Marian Harmon
271 Posts
(Lancaster, CA)
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The age doesn't really matter... as long as the person has proper ID, you're fine. Plus, it isn't any of your concern whether the document they are signing is something they can "legally" swear to or not... you're just verifying his identity and signature. I'm not sure why the NNA would tell you to have him put his age next to his signature, but I know that they've recommended that.
While minors may not be able to sign legal contracts or something similar, there are plenty of other things they may be able to sign, such as affidavits. You said, "I was shocked to hear that a minor can swear or affirm the validity of a document..." Well, no that's not quite true. They can swear to the content of a document... not necessary the validity of a document as a whole. Those are actually two different things.
Children are put under oath in court proceedings all the time. Putting them under oath for an affidavit is no different.
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Paul Williamson
103 Posts
(Inverness, FL)
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When notarizing a minor's signature, it is considered best practice to state the minor's age. (Source: FL Bar Association)
Here's what the FL Governor's Office - Notary Section has to say about this:
There is no age limit for a notarization. The legal requirements for notarizations are the same, no matter what the age of the signer. When notarizing a minor's signature, you will want to take extra precaution. Make sure that the child is present, presents acceptable identification, understands the required notarial act, and signs the document without any coercion. If there is any doubt about the child's ability to understand the document or the notarial act, do not proceed with the notarization. Instead, the parent or guardian may be able to sign the document on behalf of the child, or you could suggest that the child first receive appropriate advice about the document either from an attorney or from a parent.
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Marian Harmon
271 Posts
(Lancaster, CA)
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Thanks, Paul. I'm still not sure why mentioning the child's age matters, but I have heard it recommended before. Do you know why?
Another thing to add, I think, is that it's not our position to determine if a minor can legally sign a document or not, even if it's a contract. We're just notarizing their their signature... not making a legal determination on the validity of the document. That's for somebody else to determine. Putting them under oath, though? Perfectly legitimate no matter the age.
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Paul Williamson
103 Posts
(Inverness, FL)
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From what I've been told, putting down their age makes a difference if there is a legal issue, especially if brought to court. A person who is a minor is often treated much different under the law than an adult. It just gives a 'heads up' notice.
I agree that it's not in our purview to determine if anyone can sign any particular document. (With one exception: if the notary knows that the contents are perpetrating fraud or otherwise illegal or untrue.) It would be paramount to UPL if a notary were to make a legal determination on the validity of the document.
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Joan Bergstrom
187 Posts
(Riverside, CA)
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I agree with Miriam and to go one step further, what right do we as a CA notary have to tell a minor he/she needs to put their age next to their signature?
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Marian Harmon
271 Posts
(Lancaster, CA)
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Maybe it's just not something we see in California? Even though I know that the NNA recommends it, and they are (of course) in California.
Also, Oregon specifically tells their notaries to do this:
http://www.sos.state.or.us/corporation/notary/faqs.htm
All in all... I think it's a good idea, I just have to wonder if it's pushing it a bit as to our duties, at least as far as California goes because, in a sense...it falls within the idea of capacity, something we are specifically told we shouldn't deal with. I like the idea, I'm just not sure I'm comfortable asking anyone to do that.
Now, I think I'd happily note it in an "optional" section on a loose certificate. just as I would a "capacity claimed" type of thing.
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Paul Williamson
103 Posts
(Inverness, FL)
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The recommendation of the Florida state's attorney office is that the age of the minor should be annotated next to the minor's signature. Given that, I would ask the minor to sign his name and place his age in parenthesis after it, e.g. John Doe Jr. (14), or John Doe Jr. (age 14).
Whether or not a notary should ask the minor to put their age after their signature is a judgment call the notary must make at the time of signing. There are no hard and fast rules, as far as I can determine. However, the minor must still be positively identified following proper procedures. In Florida, a state issued ID card is available for anyone 12 years of age and older. If acceptable identification documents are not available, then the use of credible witnesses is recommended. (Source: Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, 2001)
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Paul Pitt
28 Posts
(San Diego , CA)
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A couple of things: First, how do you attach the looseleaf to the (Xerox?) copy of the passport( staple it?? .. corner or side or what??) What wording did you use for the oath? Did the father witness the oath (Is it necessary for the parent to witness the oath? Should you ever need to present the journal and testify about the affiant what would you want to be able to state?.) (I always had a parent present as a P.I. when I took a minor's statement (3 part NCR) and could testify that the parent heard and was present when the statement was taken -- I never gave an oath; just had them initial each page and sign the last page) What did the minor present for ID? What did you enter in the journal for ID? (the passport?) Did you take a thumbprint? Did you make an notation in the journal other than ID? Did you see the original passport as well as the Xerox copy? What did you write on the loose-leaf (in the additional info area? I think the California Affidavits are better than the common law states (just an opinion). Lastly in the case of a minor (for any reason) where parents are divorced and the minor is in one's custody is the minor or the custody parent assumed to be "represented by counsel" and, if so, is it necessary to ask permission of counsel to witness the acts of the client?
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Robert Koehler
103 Posts
(Tampa, FL)
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Paul - I don't see how your questions are related to the original post. But to answer the questions I can decipher, a notary can notarize the signature of a minor as long as the notary is able to positively identify the minor and the minor indicates a clear understanding of the document. In my opinion, you should ask parents and other relatives to leave the room to ensure that the minor understands the nature and effect of the document and is not being forced to sign it.
Keep in mind that, in most states, minor children who are not yet old enough for a driver license can obtain a state identification card. In Florida, children as young as 4 or 5 can obtain one. If credible witness(es) must be used to identify the child, I would say that they should not be parents or relatives of the child.
In Florida, we are not required to take thumbprints and I do not take thumbprints; I do require a signature in my journal and as with all acts I would record the child's signature.
I don't understand why you think "the California Affidavits are better than common law states"... California is a common law state, as are all states in the union except Louisiana.
I think you are referring to copy certifications in these questions. As a California notary you can not certify or attest copies; you can only take the affidavit of a person making oath that a copy is true and correct. In that case, yes, the passport copy would be attached to the affidavit as an exhibit. In Florida, we have the authority to issue certified copies (called "attested copies" here when referring to docs that are not public records), of passports, driver licenses, etc.
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Paul Williamson
103 Posts
(Inverness, FL)
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Robert,
You are mistaken about obtaining ID cards for minors in Florida. According to the Florida DHSMV, "The Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles (DHSMV) issues non-driver identification cards to State residents above 12 years of age who don't have a valid ID card, driver license or instruction permit from the State or any other jurisdiction."
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Robert Koehler
103 Posts
(Tampa, FL)
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They must have recently changed this due to Real ID requirements. I know that they used to issue ID cards for children younger than that.
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Robert Koehler
103 Posts
(Tampa, FL)
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UPDATE: Paul - just double checked. I was right - minors 5 and up can obtain an ID card:
"Any person who is 5 years of age or older, or any person who has a disability, regardless of age, who applies for a disabled parking permit under s. 320.0848, may be issued an identification card. "
http://www.flhsmv.gov/ddl/geninfo.html
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Paul Williamson
103 Posts
(Inverness, FL)
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Interesting. I too found that on the FLHSMV website. Seems to be in contradiction to the DHSMV website. (Not all that unusual.) I always thought that any school aged minor could obtain a State ID card and was taken aback when I was directed to the Florida DHSMV website. Thanks for clearing up the discrepancy.
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Marian Harmon
271 Posts
(Lancaster, CA)
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I don't know about Florida... but in California, everyone who is issued a Disabled Parking permit (as that's the statute mentioned above) is given a paper ID card that must be carried by the individual (or his/her parent) and presented to law enforcement if they are ever questioned about the use of their parking placard. My husband is disabled and has one of these. It is in ADDITION to his driver license...and it's just a printed piece of paper, much like a temporary driver license.
It's not a true ID card in the sense that it can be to establish identity.
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Paul Pitt
28 Posts
(San Diego , CA)
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As usual the answers here are very helpful. My questions arose because there were a number of issues (questions) ion terms of minors (in my mind I always imagine I am being asked by a attorney to testify as to what I did and why). So in a cross examination you could be asked was the parent in the room, did you oath include or omit some specific words, etc. It may sound nuts, but I actually had an attorney got mad (as a PI) because one of the things I was supposed to ask a farm worker was "did you start the fire?" and the worker said "yes" and so I put that in a signed statement and the attorney said "why did you put that in the statement?" (huh? it was one of your main questions.) So I always think about what is going to be asked under oath even though it probably will never happen. Kids are always a little different in terms of questioning and statements. I appreciate your answers because you are experienced and it comes out when you respond. I am getting experience from you when you post anything on this forum.
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